In this Episode we dive into the similarities between Rockstar and Sportstar Romances.
Hi, I'm Ann Jensen coming to you from the east coast of New Jersey. Hi, I'm Skyler West coming to you from the west coast of Canada. We are two Romance Writers using our life experiences to break down and share with you all things romance, how you find your next book boyfriend, discovering genres and tropes. And looking at what works and why, what doesn't work and why. Welcome back to coast to coast romance. This episode, we're going to be diving into rockers, and sports starter romance. Very exciting. We're comparing and contrasting the differences and the things that are the same. And what you can expect in a romance novel with either or now, one of the reasons that we picked these two is that they are very, at least the plots in the end, the troops that they use tend to be very similar, but coming at them from different angles. Right. So let's talk about let's start off with kind of the vibe. I mean, if if I was to talk about what I feel, what would draw me as a reader to a rocker vibe, is I know that I'm going to look for a book that's going to be a little bit dark. And I'm talking about in the blurb in the cover image. You know, when I'm looking for those things when I'm expecting to find some hot slim guy, but you know, powerfully builds lots of muscles, lots of tattoos, nice tattoos. Just want to clarify that. They they're sending off that bad boy vibe there. It's a little bit gritty. Yeah, and yeah, and then but sports with, you're looking for the bigger physique. Well, not necessarily bigger, specific, because baseball is a big thing with sports romances. But you're looking for more the, from an aesthetic point of view the boy next door, you know, the clean cut, maybe has a few tattoos that show him as yes really rebellious, but but on the whole. It's it's a guy who, in theory by the packaging, wouldn't mind taking home the mom? Yeah, it's a cleaner image for sure. Ran now that doesn't necessarily mean that the character is cleaner, right? But on the outside the packaging. Exactly. I think it's the opposite for each one is like we, with the sports star, we're looking for the outside image to be clean and wholesome, but the inside to be kinda rough and wild. And with the rock star, were looking for the outside to be rough and wild. But inside he's got a clean, wholesome heart. Absolutely. And you know what, it's, it's interesting, because I remember years ago, a friend saying to me, I mean, I'm talking years ago, before being individual was cool, you know, when everyone tried to kind of look and dress the same. And they said, so what would you do if I started wearing tie dye colors and dyed my hair purple and had a mohawk? Now he was a really straight laced white kid. And I tried to imagine that visually. And I'm like, I'm not really sure. And he says, and the right answer is I'm still the same person on the inside. Right? But that's the whole thing is is you say that, but at the same time you say, alright, something dramatic has happened in this person's life. Yes. And and is it a positive, dramatic? Or is it a negative, dramatic? And if it's a positive, dramatic, I'll hug you and be like, cool, awesome hair. Yeah. But if it's painting who you are, so you're going to completely alter what the outside package looks like, then you're going to be like, Alright, let's talk over this. Absolutely. When you take that idea to a deeper place, then obviously, there's so much more to learn about the idiosyncrasies in devious secrecy as to why this has occurred. But in this case, I find that the tropes really seem to go with the visualization, meaning that I will often find the soft guy in that hard candy shell, right, just like you said. And so it can be a misconception of what you can get from a book that has a clean image, or the considered clean the body image. Well, and I also find it interesting because we had talked to in a previous episode about MC romances, and things that people will read in an MC romance and be like, oh, you know, like the alpha male telling us women to do something or you know, something like that. If it's a rocker or a baseball star, they're like, Well, you know, that's for an alpha male. Yeah. Wait, wait, hold on. That's so true. There was so much objectifying with these images, isn't there? Mm hmm. So let's go over, if we were to break down the looks we kind of talked about, but then we look at the, what are they drawing to them. As an example, if you're going to read a book about a rocker, you can expect that there's going to be something in there about their fanbase, right, whether it's a groups of fans, or whether it's a hardcore, single fan, or some close groupies or whatever it is. But in sports, it's a little bit different. It's a little bit different, but I think it's more on scale. And once again, I think this has to do with the image. It's like, when you've got your groupies for a rock star, you know, you think in your head these wild out of control women who are throwing panties, and you know, everything like that, but they're just as aggressive with sports stars, but in subtler ways, agreed. They see them at a bar, and they're just like, well, let me hand you my panties or their is trying to get them drunk and take them home or latch on to them. Absolutely. And I think that if you I mean, I have seen because I've been part of that. That scene in in my city. Mm hmm. It's more on the subtle side of, you know, the girl the cocktail dress instead of the skanky, you know, mini dress. Right? Right. And she's sliding her panties into, you know, wearing her $5,000 ring, you know, sliding her panty her expensive, you know, panties in his pocket, whereas, you know, anything goes. So it really is very similar, but perhaps at the motivations are the same. But the packaging is quite different. Yeah. And the motivation is the same in any of the you know, it's the unattainable, it's the superstar who would never get together with the girl next door. And from a readers perspective, the reason that we I, at least I know, that I like to read about it is like, what would it be like to be inserted in these bigger than life? lifestyles? Exactly. And in some ways, it almost feels, even though it's not more realistic, it feels more realistic than, say, a billionaire romance, right? Part of that is just that I think we all in our heads believe that there's a higher probability of us going to a bar and meeting a football guy or a baseball guy or a rocker then randomly bumping into a billionaire, a billionaire. Yeah. business guy. Well, that's, that's very, that's a very good point. And that could be said, for many of the genres and sub genres within the romance field is, I think that's why so many of them are becoming so big, including, as an example alien romance, even this is a bit off topic is that it's easier to project and see things in a different world. Right, sometimes, right. But I don't know if you ever saw it. But back in 1988, there was a movie with Susan Sarandon called bowl Durham. And yeah, I mean, that had to be. I mean, luckily, in the 80s, there was a lot of sports movies. So I you know, Tom Cruise did them. He did a football one. Yeah. And it's small town, the guy finally gets a scholarship and escapes, someone escapes, you know, and moves on to something bigger, and there's been tons of them. Hoosiers was brilliant. Yeah. But Bull Durham was the baseball show I just fell in love with. And, you know, that was a perfect example. Because the wives didn't necessary, though. In fact, they didn't. The wives didn't travel with these athletes. Right. But the groupies did. Right. And so that's very similar to the rocker back to that again. Yeah. And the other thing is, is that in real life, sports stars are in shape and are good looking. And rock stars are good looking. Whereas most billionaires, let's be honest, right now, the good looking. No, no. I mean, they're not the 50 Shades of Grey guy. No, no, no, no. This is so true. So when it comes to both rockers and sports we end up with, alright, so one of the conflicts that whoever the heroine is has to deal with is dealing with the fact that most likely they're not going to be traveling with them all the time. And this temptation is going to be there. Always. Yes. Jealousy has to be overcome. Yeah, well, I mean, if we're talking fantasy versus reality, I think in reality, it would be very challenging. You know, I think of a famous hockey player from Canada and his wife. I mean, they she was actually an actress, so their mutual success. And I think Beckham and the ex spice singer on posh, I think, I think that their relationship and I I'd like to imagine that because they're both on equal footing with their fame, that they have this higher or elevated ability to get past the smaller things that say, they also might be able to understand better that just because that once you get to assert, so I think one of the themes, at least in sports romance is that in the beginning of their careers, they're idiots. And they do go with the groupies and you know, everything like that. And then they realize that that gets old really fast, because they're not actually looking at these people as people. Right? They're looking at them as icons or exactly proof. And that can that can happen anywhere. I mean, you think about what a rocker or professional athletes going to run into, they're going to have, there's going to be the musician has the fan of the athlete has a fan. There's reporters, there could be something that happens there. There is what if there's an injury, especially with an athlete, there's a nurse? Yeah, right. Flight attendants, for both of them, they're traveling all the time. Telling Talent scouts, record label owners, you know, for the rocker, they could even meet somebody in a great you just never know, physiotherapy for the athlete. Like, there's just so many ways in which they are subjected put to a potential families just in their everyday lives, right. Yeah, I also feel like with both of them, like I was saying earlier, it's like in the beginning, they're both probably stupid about it. And so most of the romances that I have read, the people are either established or near the end of their career. I think the difference is like with a sports romance, you have that the fear that a single, like you said, a single injury could take them out of it could end their career in a heartbeat. Whereas with a rocker, I mean, I guess it could happen, but it's more media and, and everything like that. And the difference between the two of them with the media is the rockers do better, the more wild and, you know, image that they put out, and it can actually hurt their career, if they're seen as in a stable relationship, because some of their fan base is based off of the fantasy, yes, people are, are available, whereas with sports guys, it's more. It's the reverse. Like, if they're seen to wild or they're seen as then they're not a stable thing for the team. And so, yes, one of the tropes that I've seen often in sports romances is that they're trying to get a sponsorship deal or an endorsement deal or something like that. But they see them as too much of a playboy or they see them as too unstable. So then they do either the fake engagement or the fake marriage or the absolutely, or the paid marriage or the paint, you know, like yes, yeah, 100% marriage of convenience, whereas with the rockers, you know, their agent is trying to break them up. Because they're like, no, no, no, this person isn't good for your image. Well, let's look at Ozzy and Sharon. Like, I can't even imagine the types of things they must have weathered as a couple. Well, I am sometimes I always wondered if some of these more outrageous stuff was to counter the fact that he was married. Yes. Stable. I mean, I'm not saying that the two are stable, but no, but they have a relate. Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying. And it, it's interesting because you use that term reality adjacent a lot. And, and in, in, in our not in our fiction in our stories, right, that we write and that we read, that makes perfect sense. But it's amazing to me how unrealistic these boxed attitudes are within people that have that are in the spotlight. Right. So for me, the athletes remind me of the Hollywood stars in the 50s. So in the 40s and 50s. Once you signed a contract, that studio ran everything what you wore how you look, there were photo ops, everything was planned. If you were gay, like Rock Hudson, you weren't allowed to be gay. You had a marriage. They created and stylized you in an image, right? That's what you were attracted to. You weren't attracted to what was real. You didn't even know what was real. Right? Right. But now We live at a time where there's social media. And everything is real, whether it's not whether it is or not. You're seeing it. You're saying like social, like people craft their social media a lot, but it's a lot harder to have a say closeted life. Yeah, it's harder to hide it because now today we're on social media. But the fact that everyone has social media, exactly. And that's the thing is, so you, you no longer get to live in an era where your personality and your lifestyle is crafted by someone greater than self by a studio owner, athlete, like a team owner, or anybody else, I still think they try. I'm sure they do. But But I like that in many of the romances that I've read, it's been a matter of not just trying to craft your public image, but fighting against someone posting that they've had your loved child or that you slept with them, and you have no idea who they are. And you know what I mean? Like, it's very easy to get dragged in the mud, even if you don't do anything wrong. Of course it is. But that's a little bit different. I mean, what I'm basically referring to is, is that, for me, the way that the athletes lives are run the way that they're televising expose, I think they really do the best they can and only representing what they want people to see. Right, which reminds me of that Hollywood era in which they did the same thing, which, of course, I don't think that exists anymore. But yeah, but in what you're saying, I agree, I think that and in a lot of ways, sports stars have become almost like actors in the day, because they can't just play well. Correct. Because the endorsement deals and the sponsorships and everything like that means that they have to craft more than just their skills, they have to craft their image and they have to craft exactly where you see that less and less in the music industry. But at least the rocker industry, I think with with pop if you I mean, if we were going to take it all apart, there, you're gonna see different things. But if you look at the pop princesses, like Britney Spears, even the Spice Girls, like some of these bigger bands that all of this started in the 90s there was even look at Backstreet Boys in sync, you know, you look at these image created bands and rice, right. But that's really only been, what the last 25 years, I think. Yeah, and I think with rockers nowadays, they, they have more latitude, because individuality is praised. But I think on some levels, they still have to pick an image and stick to it. And and you know what I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna roll this into a romance author thing. One of the reasons that we use other pen names is because our books are our image. Right? And so even though I may enjoy writing urban fantasy or something, absolutely, completely differently, or say a children's book, which I'll never write a children's book, but you can't do it under like, people don't want you to do it under the same name. Because that's, you've crafted an image for that person. Well, sure. I mean, we all have an image of Stephen King. Yeah, so all sudden, Stephen King has started writing I don't know romance. Probably the first person to pick up a Stephen King book would go like, maybe like, what is the love interest kind of sprout tentacles or something? And you know, or have a or have a dead boyfriend come back from the grave and try to kill them all. That's funny. But yeah, no. So So there's, there's an expectation and you can you have wiggle rooms within those expectations. But when we pick up a sports romance, there are certain things that we're expecting to see when we pick up a rocker romance. Exactly. And what's funny is I have picked up a rocker romance. And it was actually serious, though, of course, I can't remember the see I'm so bad at remembering book names. Once you hit 40 It's all over here. I know. I need like those memory pills. Anyway, it went through the whole band. And one of them was like a shy introvert who was just like a sweetie pie and everything like that. I think he was the drummer, but I can't remember. And I remember kind of like it was a very sweet romance. And but the other ones were like these wildlife or, you know, like, kinda wrote and I was like, it's interesting. Well, it's interesting, like so in my books, and many of my books the female lead as a drummer. And the reason why I do that is because I have also played drums, and I dated a guy who was a rocker, who also played drums and taught me Very talented guy who also played bass and can sing and record and arrange and write music and all those other wonderful things. Right. But when I write, the reason why my drummers are drummers is because they want to hide. And people often don't understand that. And it's the same thing I had someone asked me, if you're an introvert, how is it that you can teach yoga to 1000s of people? Um, so Well, that's easy, because I'm the only one talking for starters, and I'm controlling the vibe in the room. Right? So energetically, that's a very easy thing to do. But if you were to ask me to engage in conversation with 50 other people, hmm, it's not gonna happen. So for me, drumming is great, because yeah, you're, you're in this incredible band, and everyone's noticing you, but they're more interested usually, in the guitarist and the singer, people that are in the front, so you're kind of sheltered almost on those drums. Right, though I where I was going with that is, is that in musical or music based romance stories, you are going to have those sweet, different characters in there, because it's a real blend. Yeah, I love God, I'm trying to remember, now it's killing me the rock chicks series, I'm gonna have to look it up in your head. While you're doing that, I'm just gonna mention one that I'm currently reading by an author named Jane diamond. And it's forbidden love trope. And it's called filthy Beautiful. Now I'm about halfway through. And what's interesting about this story, just because you mentioned this, either they're at the they're in the height of their career, or they're winding down from their career. Now in this story, the rocker, his band has fallen apart, his initial band that he's made this platinum records with. So then he's with another band, and this is the drummer, and then he's with another band, and then and now he's decided, he's gonna go in a completely different direction, because he's not satisfied, whereas the guy that started the band is become a recluse, and only does recording for other bands. So I just think it's really interesting to have these. I don't know I like it, because in this case, he's in love with the leads younger sister, there comes the Forbidden Love part. She's 12 years younger. She's his best friend's sister, right? She lives with her brother and helps him because he's a recluse. Right. And so the other character, that drummer is struggling through this natural attraction that he has. And it's interesting, because the story opens with him having sex with a hooker. Now, that's, and I read that Oh, yeah. Okay, that's what I expected. Oh, dear, say the rock chick series, Kristen. Ashley was the author of that that was the name I couldn't remember. But I love that because it took what a lot of times is very dark. So a lot of rocker romances are very dark and will have to do with addiction and have to deal with violence. And, and I'm not saying that none of that's in the rack check. But there's so much comedy. Nice. That's awesome, that it gives you a great feel. And part of it has to do with the and for those of us over 40 We live that we live the rock chick experience for at least a couple years of our life. And we have that favorite t shirt we have that favorite we have that group of girls that we went to the bar was like, yeah, for whatever band, it was at the time. Absolutely. And still to this day, every now and then, like me and my sister, you know, something like that? Well, we'll just have like a nostalgic event where like, we're white collar buttoned up. And then we're like, let's go to you know, whatever concert, we get out the cutout neck T shirts and the way to tight jeans that you have to lay down to put on and that's awesome. Yeah, I do love music and we wanted to take our daughter to her first concert. So we took her to see pink. And, and not I mean, there's a few songs of hers that I love, but most of the her older stuff, but what I was expecting what I got was the the performance. Mm hmm. I mean, she's, she's amazing to watch live. Absolutely amazing. And there I would imagine, I mean pinks kind of a, you know, pop rocker. So I imagine she has quite an interesting, diverse fan base. For someone who's a huge superstar. It was interesting to see the different kinds of people attending her concert. That was quite a range. But she did not disappoint. Yeah, I had I let's see my early 20s was was what I called angry women music. So like a lot more said, Meredith Brooks. And I, I, a lot of horses come into play near me and I'm trying to get go out and see it because nostalgia, you know? Absolutely. Well, it's not the same. No. And I can't tell you how many times I've seen the who and the Rolling Stones, like, yeah, as a kid, and as an adult. They're already old, but the time I was a kid, the fact I got to see me as even as a young adult was awesome. The band I have seen most live. And you'll laugh at this was Pink Floyd. Oh, brilliant. Because, like, I know, their music or anything. Like, I remember the last time I saw them, you know, I'm sitting there at the concert, the laser lights are going on, like all as you know, the music still sounds just as good. Yeah, everything. And then I look up on stage and I'm like, oh, oh, there Oh. Okay, that's like the last AC DC concert where they're still wearing shorts. And they're 68. You know what, I still enjoy the concert. So whatever. Absolutely. Well, that's the thing is they're so iconic. But here's the thing I found interesting. And when I saw the Rolling Stones, I drove Well, actually, I jumped on a bus across the border, and would Seattle and saw the Rolling Stones. And I tell you, everyone, and not myself because I was 13. But I had never seen that many high people in my life. They were so and I mean, excessively high right now a year and a half later, I go to concerts, same location. And everyone was it was almost like a completely different breed of people that like rock. These people were more like, they were more yuppie ish. And you can tell they did a lot of cocaine. So one was, like completely crunched out. And one wasn't that I remember even then being fascinated by the different vibe. Right that that had to offer. Things aren't always as they seem or appear. Right. Right. And I think I enjoy the romance novels that give you that? Absolutely. They don't just give you the boy meat girl. Yes, that and I've read some, both with rocker in sports, where it was just like, the fact that they were a sports star was just their profession. It was It wasn't part of the story, or the fact that they were a rocker was just part of their profession. It wasn't part of the story. And not to me, we've had that long conversation recently about the interesting classification of certain books, right? Like the the categories and stuff that they go in where you can be like, alright, a lawyer might state that a human an a shifter or a human and an alien is interracial. However, that is not what the category is about. The category is about the struggle of being or that being part of the trope or whatever. And when you classify a book as a rock star or a sports romance, something about them being a rocker or sports should be part of the plot. Absolutely. I mean, at the athlete hero, I read one. I think her last name is Marie, but I've looked for it. I can't find it since first sports love romance. So they had read. And in it, this football hero, this football star saves a boy in the storm. As a perfect example of the athlete hero you there's Alpha heroes. There's there's circumstances there's so many things that create that way, Beyonds you're right, just that title or just that one genre. Right. And that's the thing as a reader is you have to, you have to find those sub genres and tropes. Were in that realm. Exactly. Exactly. And there's so many like, I could see the bachelor auction being really great for the athlete or the rocker. Probably the athlete would be more like the fundraising they do. Yeah, the fundraising and everything like that. I've seen the sports being used in a bachelor auction or something like that. Absolutely. What I I've liked, I've seen books done both in rocker and in sportstar, where the person doesn't recognize them. And that's the novelty. And so for the first quarter of the book, it's just a boy meets girl. Yes. And you can see that with a trope of blind date too. You know, where yeah, they get set up by two friends, you know, not necessarily telling who that person is right. That's up for them to discover. I love those Yeah, they're fun. Second Chance, love you had mentioned earlier. Well, my record before we were talking before the show before the show, and I'd like that too. Because your high school sweetheart that yeah, and they get the scholarship. So like, you know, they get out of town, they go to that university that has the stellar, they get the fame or they gets a fortune and what they miss is that small town girl, a small town girl. Yep. But they come back to or you know, in some ways, sometimes I've also seen it where small time, small town girl in small town boy, small town boy goes off and you know, makes this fortune doing one thing and the small town girl goes off and become somebody different? Yes. One of the things that I like in sports romance is that it's a very male centric industry. And so I enjoy when you have like, the woman becoming the team owner, or the woman becoming the PR director, and she's fighting to prove herself as a woman within this industry. But she also falls in love with one of the athletes. Yes. Which could then less than her cred, you know, whatever. Yep. It's a situation where the reverse wouldn't necessarily be true. Yeah. Or they wouldn't blink an eye. And I like those too, because I think you're seeing more and more women have power in the sports industry. And so, you know, and what's been a male dominated area, you know, like owning teams and even coaching. I remember, this is going back. But in 1979, a movie came out with Kathie Lee Crosby called coach, and I fell in love with it because her in the show her name is Randy so she has a guy's name. She get she's an excellent peon. And she takes a job coaching a high school boys basketball team, and she shows up, it's like, coach, they're like, No, I'm sorry, this cannot work. Yes, she's beautiful. Oh, great body. They're also the boys are all their eyes are popping out of their heads. It was great. But she's an amazing coach. So when they get past her looks, right. They get past what she is, and they get past. You know that there's a female playing those role in their lives. Well, they become one of the best teams they become better than they've ever been. And I think those are great stories. Yeah, yeah. Paparazzi is another big thing in both, yes, tabloids, fake pregnancy, all of that. I was reading I think it was one a Long Island bales books. And it was the athlete starts a relationship with one woman and then someone comes forward and says that they're pregnant with the guy's baby. And then it turns out that it's not his baby, his brother's baby, but and she's all like, of course, I'll take a DNA test, thinking that brothers would show up exactly the same. That's great. But I always like things like that, where it's like, it's, it's a real, you know, in that reality adjacent philosophy that I have in that it's a realistic problem that someone in that situation would have to deal with, like, you and I decide to head out to the store just to grab bread real quick, and we throw our hair up in a bun and yoga pants and a rip t shirt. You know, like, who cares? Nobody's gonna notice, you know, you're decent, but you look like crap. Yeah, they do that and all sudden, gosh, they get hammered. Yeah. Oh, how was she drunk? You know, how drunk was she? How over you know how go over? He won't give her real clothing. You know? I just think of how many tabloids have taken pictures of stars, on their way in are way out of a yoga or pilates class. Right? Oh, they got their mat tucked under their arm and or JLo being dropped off at a gym? Yes. It's like, oh my god, you guys. It's like, hey, they're going into RE form there. But it's like, yeah, that's newsworthy. Thank you for that. Though I do laugh because the times that I've gone to the gym when I go to the gym, yeah, there is no thought process to how good or bad I look. But I still remember there's always the women there that are like full face makeup. Oh, you know, we call them the gym girls. And the gym. Girls have a very relevant place of the athlete world because they're not athletes. And they're not coordinated. But they have the fake nails. They have the fake tan. They wear the makeup. They usually have blonde highlights. They're usually wearing something extremely expensive. They're in a crop top. And yeah, they are definitely their own breed. I was an operations manager For a gym, and, and it was, and they're the first ones to say we are on break, don't mix us up with everybody else. Though I laugh and if you want to laugh at somewhere some point you need to look up a YouTube and it's active where it's a song that was done by this like, I think it was an English group, where it was about the woman who wears her activewear everywhere. And it's like, that's shopping for shopping for activewear and my active were going for a coffee in my active where I'm picking up the kids in my active wear. Yeah, like, and I always joke that they're like the reverse of those women in the gym. Right? So they want to look like they're always working out. Right? Right. So they wear the the workout clothes to do very random things. Well, and you know, what I used to think, are sorry, I should say, I was always dressed in yoga clothing, because I taught six days a week. So I was always in yoga clothes, right? And it's taken me and I have recently stopped teaching. And it's taken me a long time to realize I don't have to wear yoga clothes every day. Oh, dear. But so adding those characters into the books is what makes things interesting. Adding those those those real life reality adjacent details is what draws us in. I will say that I don't other than that one where I told you about the drummer being a sweet, beta, male type, run the whole I think, again, with the sports romance in the in the rocker romance, we're looking for the alpha male we're looking for the we're not only looking for the alpha male, we're looking for the extrovert, we're looking for the well. And it's funny you say that because even within that realm, there's the beta hero. So yeah, we are we're looking. We assume that the athlete that has the boy next door, the happy go lucky attitude and face and demeanor is going to be less aggressive or less Alpha ish in the rocker. But really, there is quite a blend in there. And but like you said, it's reality adjacent and in our fictional romance, we want it all right. Absolutely. Yeah, and even what's interesting is even in the series that I've read, whether it be rocker or sports, we don't really go to like, you don't read a rocker romance to find out about the roadies. Exactly. Or the backup singer. If I read a rocker romance, and they're playing in local bars, I expect at some point for them to get their big break, right, or to turn down their big break. But we're expecting the top of their class and with athletes are not looking at third string players who were playing on the farm team or unless they were first line players and they got injured and they're working their way back to the first one. It's part of the recovery process. Right and so we're looking for the quail to drop. This this super talented and funny is I have read quite a few baseball romances. And I have gone to quite a few baseball games. Not that I enjoy them. I will say this right now in real life. Me and sports. No. Zero Interest. And if you look out on a baseball field, you got like, kind of like a 5050 mix of physiques. Yes. Very true. That's, that's, that's how that's how I'll put it physiques. But of course, all of our our baseball players in the books, like you don't even have people on the baseball team that have guts that look like they have a keg, or they're wearing Okay, consider drinking one. Yes. They're their beer babies. Right? However, you do see them on the field. Because they might be a great hitter. They might be the best Catcher in the world. Yeah, like certain positions call to certain levels of attractiveness and, and in the rocker. It's also the same because like, if you really study like rock bands through the ages, you can usually like even if you don't know who the front man is, this usually pretty easy to pick out. Yeah. Well, I remember having a big crush on Roger Daltrey. I thought he was so beautiful with his big baby. Be blues. And you know what's funny is we were in the city last weekend. And we were in a sports bar. And so there were sports all over the place. And we were watching baseball. And that was the Jets, the Jets. There's a team called the Jets. I know. There you go. So the jets, and obviously I'm up on my American baseball, not at all. And another team but I was killing myself because the pitcher for the Jets did this thing where he crossed his knees, he stuck out as as he did this kind of funky chicken dance. And there will be pitch the bullet hits the ground first. Like he was hitting the ground. And I didn't even know that was legal. i I have no idea if that is legal or not. And I was like, maybe it was just a mistake. So watching I watched for half an hour. Every single pitch hit the ground, like halfway to the plate. Like some comedy? No, no, no, no, no, this was an actual game. And I was sitting there going, Are you guys seeing this like is that they must have changed the rules at some point? I I don't know. Well, right. So but let me let me explain the level of my expertise in baseball. I was at a baseball game. And the people with me left and to go get beer and came back. And they asked me what had happened while they were away. And I told them that the Phillies had lost possession of the ball. And they looked at me like I was insane. And I was like, well, the Phillies were pitching. And now they're a bat. So they don't have possession of the ball. You are hilarious. And they were like yeah, that's why are you here again, and I'm like free tickets. All work, haven't donated entertainment. What can I say? So yeah, so that is my level of now. Soccer, soccer, soccer. I know, though I don't really watch professional soccer. I just played soccer. So I know the rules. Football. I mostly know just because my father enjoyed it. Whose father didn't really, in general, if I have to go see a live sport. It's hockey because the fights are sure. Totally amusing to me, though, from what I understand. In more recent years, they've decreased. So probably not as fun for me to go watch, but they seem very staged. To me. I also have to admit, I've always been, I've always enjoyed the types of type of men who play hockey, how's that? Ah, now we're getting somewhere? Well, it's funny that you mentioned as a trope, accidental meat and not recognizing the person. So I was out for dinner one night with a girlfriend years ago. And I could feel someone looking at me, you know how you just get that sensation. And so I'm looking around the restaurant, and I'm like, who's looking at me. And then finally, often this kind of big booth. There's only two guys sitting there. But this big booth for these two guys. And it was kind of in the dark, almost like they were sectioned off. And these eyes, I mean, they must have been quite light because they will was glittering like you would almost see like a wolf size at night. And I'm like, oh. So then literally within 30 seconds, there's a drink at My table. Anyways, it turned out to be the goalie for our Vancouver team. And he was much more attractive up close. And he was on screen to say, Well, I remember before I started doing what I do now, I worked for a bank. And I was a bank manager at one point, and had a very nice gentleman in gave him some financial advice. He had a lot of money. So of course, I was very polite to him. And I spent a good two hours in my office with this gentleman, and I knew his name and I'm not gonna say his name, but I knew his name and everything like that. And then he left after filling out all the forms and doing all the stuff and like everybody rushed into my office and they were like, Oh my God, you just spent two hours with, you know, so and so. And it was it was the quarterback of the local pro football team who was a huge deal to someone. And I was like, sure he was great. He was nice guy. Like, I was like, you know, and they're like, but did you did you get his autograph? I'm like, No, I mean, he signed stuff, but you know that's awesome. Like, how could you have because like, apparently at that time he was this giant thing. How could you have him in your office and not get an autograph? I'm like, honestly didn't know who he was. Wow, there you go. So you know you could write a book about that. Well, yeah, but Just you know, romanticize it. I think it would be fantastic. And now that I've said that, I think I'm going to do that to my own experience. I like your your experiences more like, Oh, baby, you know, like minds like, I got them into some mutual funds and very sexy because it was the sex sexy. We talked about his retirement and his planning. What percentage of his income he should be putting away if he wanted to retire? Sadly, and I remember it, the funny part is I do remember thinking, Oh, that makes more sense why he said he wanted to retire at 37. Because I was like, well, that's really aggressive. I mean, all right, let's, let's see what we can do. And I was like, Well, I guess you're making enough money that you could retire at that point. But it's still just didn't? Well, sometimes it doesn't. And they're so different than what, like what we see. And that was my point, about half an hour ago, when I was talking about the old style Hollywood stars, and how it reminds me more of how the athletes are kind of directed and you know, how they're presented is what we see. And what's actually there are often so different that it doesn't even spark that we're talking to, like, in your situation, I probably would have assumed the same and that even if I had recognized the name, I thought, Oh, that's a coincidence. Right? Yeah. So anything else that we can compare and contrast about the rocker and the athlete? So I think we've talked all about the reasons why we want to read these books now. Right? What is it that makes people not enjoy them? Right. And I think those are different between the two. I do too. The only thing that I think perhaps would be the same would be the cockiness. That's true for any book that involves someone who has fame. Correct. Yeah. So for me was sports romance. It's more the he's only around yet, like so. And I'm not even necessarily talking about why people would want to read him. But like, cheating is a big, more realistic thing. So in sports, romance, and everything like that, and there have been quite a few where it's forgiven or and you know, me and cheating. And I'm like, I'm done. Yeah. I don't want to read this book. That and what? I think it's more likely. So I have a cousin who has dated very famous people within the sports world, and they have been shirks, it's possible that a reader would have a personal experience in their own thing that says, right, right. Sports people are jerks. I don't want to romanticize them. Sure. Oh, boy. Well, you said something similar, a podcast a long time ago regarding why people don't read Angel books. Yeah, same thing. There's a perception, right, or a personal experience, and you just can't get around that. But I want to beg the readership to understand that most of these people that are writing these, either steamy romance or just romance stories involving these, it's not the focus, right. Like the the reality is not the focus the way we're looking at a reality adjacent world, as we've said many, many times, and so even if you've had a personal experience, it's not a reason to not read the genre. Right. And I just want to encourage people right, to Yeah, to to realize that it's, you can get a great story, even if the reality of the situation would not be there. Exactly. And then with rocker books, drugs are usually present. Absolutely. There's a lot of partying, there's drugs and alcohol. There's party girls, often under agers. And that's another thing. Is that like, skating the line. Yes. Is in some rocker books. A big thing like, okay, so, you know, in Texas, the legal age of consent is 17. So, a 17 year old and the 37 year old rocker is not technically illegal, but it makes them a cup makes people uncomfortable. Yes or no. Again, infidelity? Yes. And that sort of thing. So I think people are more careful when picking up a rocker book than they would be picking up a sports book. I think you're right, just kind of things. Yes. And even the one I'm reading currently, I think this author has done a good job of Jane diamond. The girl in this in the story is almost 19 So she's 18 Write the rocker is 30. Right? So there's a 12 year difference there. She's said several times that in his head, he gets that this isn't cool. And so he's doing everything in his power to kind of avoid her. Even though he thinks that she's the one. Yeah. And I think it says, so what is in Canada? What is the age of alcohol? Drinking? 19. Okay, so but you're an adult at 18? Well, so you're an adult at 18 in the US, and you can get 21. Yeah, it's funny how that magical line makes a difference. It does make a difference, because we tend to look at things as they're legal, like they're an adult when they can drink. Right? And even though at 18, they're illegal, and they can go into the, and they can go into the army. And they can, you know, and they can do all of these things. Right? Because it can be killed at 18. Yeah, ah, really? Yeah. But for some reason, in our heads, anyone under the age of 21, isn't fully emotionally developed. So if they're with someone where there's a big age gap, there's this uncomfortable feeling. Whereas I've talked to people in Europe or in you know, in other places where the drinking age is not, you know, you drink for what, from whatever. Yeah, and some, it's young as like 16, or something like that. But they don't have that same secondary line. Yeah, in their heads, yes. Like, legal is legal. And so then they don't have that feeling of Swick with the age gap. Whereas for me, it's stages of life, like, and so I have less of a problem with a 19 year old who has a career getting together with a 37 year old than I do with a 19 year old in college getting together with a 30 something year old. Well, yeah, see, this is the thing, right? Is it's interesting, the perception on how all of these things are for different people. Like my dad has been with his wife for 35 years. And she's only three years older than me. That must been awkward. At first. It was three and a half years. But yeah, but but as time went on, you know, that time difference that age difference is completely I mean, who cares? Right? I don't have like, it's funny. I don't have a problem with like, a 26 year old getting together with anyone under the age of 50. You know, and then, and and that 50 line is that weird mark in my head, because then you're moving into retirement, or you're moving into the next stage of age? Yep. 100%. And what's funny is, I don't have a problem they get together when he's 45. And she's 27. He's obviously gonna become 50 and move into the next stage of life, but for some reason, that's okay with me, but I don't know. It's just Oh, that's awesome. Funny. I know. We're all weird about our romances. Well, here's the thing that I think isn't taken into consideration by a reader who lacks worldly experience themselves. And so I grew up in the nightclub industry. I started spending, I was at my parents club till three in the morning, at the age 10. Age 11. I saw everything I was I was an adult when I was 13. And people that met me assumed I was an adult, they just never saw me as a kid or a teenager, I just completely bypassed. Right? I went from I went from 10 to 20, just like that. And so for me, I was exposed to so much and saw so much. So that when I read about age differences, like Okay, say it's a an 18 year old girl and the guy's 36. No problem, because I know what I was like at 18. And that's my comparison. So we have to look and see what we're using as these comparisons. And again, for someone reading a book, they have to remember that they're going to compare it against their own experience, right? Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what they're reading. Yeah. I kid it's funny because we keep talking about the age gap with the guy being older. I did actually read one where the the now mind you. This just shows you the difference in people's minds between an age gap between a man and a woman where the man is older. She was four years older than him. And they were like she was she was 40 and he was 36. And it was a huge deal to her. Wow. In the book like it was just like, it was the woman's mindset was just like Young your that, you know is four years and they were having this kind of thing in order for a guy in a romance book to have that kind of it's usually got to be over 15 years. Right? Different. Yeah. Yeah. Like no one would consider a four year age gap between a guy and a girl to even be a thing. Like if the guy was older, right. But But that again, in reality, I will admit that having gone back out on the dating scene that I can look and go, Yeah, I can't, I can't I can't date a guy in his 20s it just, it's a thing. Now it's a big thing with guys in their 20s dating women in their 40s. But I just want to pinch their cheeks. But I'll read books about 20 year old shirts. Oh, oh, yeah. Well, and that's the thing for me, like my twins just turned 32. So in my mind, if I was to like, I remember when I was on the dating scene for a brief two years, and I had people their age that would email me I'm like, No, Ill. You're like my kids. But in the fantasy, it's a whole other deal. Well, it's funny, because it's like, if I could, if I'm old enough to have given birth to you, you're too young. So 16 years? No, but I think even more than five years. I don't know that I could. Yeah, I'm the same. But it's interesting that that's what it's like for us, but it's so completely different for other people. Yeah, it's a it's all very intriguing. But it's all about the fantasy. But I also think that when women fantasize they fantasize themselves younger. So yes, so they like Second Chance stories or, you know, stories about older people I can enjoy. But I can also enjoy putting myself in the 20 year olds brain and reading their love story just as much. But I don't know if it's the same for guys like I don't know, it'd be interesting to talk to, we need to find like a male romance author and, and get the Yeah, that's a really good idea. I'm gonna I'm gonna add that to my list and thank you for that. Alright, so with that, I think we have covered everything we have. Thank you for tuning in to coast to coast aroma. I hope you've enjoyed your time with us. Thank you for listening to coast to coast Romans. I'm Ann Jensen, and I'm Skyler West. If you'd like to contact either of us. Our links are located in the show notes. Have a great week. Thanks so much for joining us.